Persuasiveness, Logical Reasoning, and Effective Evidence Gathering
Every month I host a wine & cheese party at my apartment. At these parties, my friends and I play a game called MAFIA. MAFIA is won through persuasiveness, logical reasoning, and effective evidence gathering—all lawyer skills.
Last week, I invited five law students and seven non-law students to play. I assumed the law students would all fair better than the non-law students because law students are trained to be persuasive, to reason logically, and to effectively gather evidence.
The group played five rounds and the non-law school students won every single round (and got prizes).
But how could that be? Can persuasiveness not be learned at the graduate level? Is it a skill developed early on in life?
Can you teach somebody to reason logically or is logical reasoning an innate part of a person’s IQ?
Technorati Tags: Logical Reasoning, Persuasive, Persuasiveness, Lying, Deception
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February 26th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
I don’t see any food there. You should offer food to your company. was there *really* cheese there? Did the law students have any? maybe they need to have more brain food.
February 26th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Counselor Linda,
Ask Counselor Ryan–there was food. Everybody had some. There were cookies too. You should know this because you baked them.
-Rick Lax
February 27th, 2007 at 1:50 am
Yes, I had one of those heart shaped cookies; they were delish!
Firstly, a minor correction: I am a law student and I actually won one of the rounds that night! However, without the help of a non-law student I might not have been so successful.
As far as persuasive ability, I believe it is ingrained early in life, but can, of course, be substantially honed at the graduate level. Parents that force their children to think through choices and explain exactly why they want this toy at that toy will likely develop stronger persuasive skills. Also, people put in defensive situations, where they must convince others of something to protect themselves or their emotions, will also manifest strong persuasive abilities.
Logical reasoning, I think, is probably genetically determined to some extent. See Steven Pinker’s “How the Mind Works,” in which he explains that there is something “peculiarly compelling, even irresistible, about P, P implies Q, therefore Q.” Pinker discusses the apparent intrinsicness of logic, using language to make his points. All languages have logical terms such as “not,” “and,” “some,” “equivalent,” and “opposite.” Children can use “and,” “not,” “or,” and “if” appropriately before the age of three. Therefore, according to Pinker, logical reasoning abilities form very early. To what extent they are refined, of course, seems more likely a product of nuture than nature.
For some contrast, consider David Johnson, in his book, “How History Made the Mind: The Cultural Origins of Objective Thinking,” who argues that logical reasoning is not innate or biologically developed. Instead, he claims logically reasoning is unnatural, and human’s ability to think objectively mainly flourished in Homeric Greece.
Whatever the roots and origins of logically reasoning, Matt Ridley might say, even if our genes already map out our potential to reason logically, those genes can shape-shift and be altered based on our behavior. Therefore, the behaviors a lawyer becomes accustomed to (or those of a well-versed Mafia player), over an extended period of time, may improve their ‘logical reasoning’ genes.
In any case, I hope my logical reasoning was somewhat persuasive…
February 27th, 2007 at 7:25 am
Ricky,
Was a man named Steve Ecks at your party? He’s an old friend of mine, and it looks as if he was in attendance.
I still haven’t made it to a game. It looks like I’m missing out!
Take care,
Geoff
February 27th, 2007 at 9:25 am
I think you need to gather evidence for the group of your friends who are not in law school and demonstrate how effective they could be and how much money they would make if they became lawyers. I believe this type of logical reasoning would be very persuasive.
February 27th, 2007 at 10:20 am
wine… cheese… and BABES!
February 27th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Ricky, were those questions you posed about persuasiveness and logical reasoning rhetorical? If so, boy do I feel like a schmuck!
February 28th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Elliott - the questions were likely only half-rhetorical at most. Mort likely they were designed to induce thoughtful comments (mission accomplished, with the exception of mine.)
To weigh in with my authoritative cognitive psychology background:
Can persuasiveness not be learned at the graduate level? Is it a skill developed early on in life?
Persuasiveness is a skill that can be refined through experience and practice. That said, cognitive performance (including skill acquisition) tends to peak in the early 20s and start a decline by age 30. That is not to say that knowledge complexity and wisdom can’t continue to accrue, just that the rate of acquisition declines.
Can you teach somebody to reason logically or is logical reasoning an innate part of a person’s IQ?
Both, although IQ is a weak metric for intelligence. Several forms of intelligence have been identified that are not reflected in one’s IQ. (e.g. research by Gardner or Sternberg)
March 1st, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Counselor Eliot,
The questions were not meant as rhetorical, so thanks for you answers. I like the idea of a parent making a child explain why they want a toy, though. I wonder if our parents ever did that to us? Set us on the lawyer track from an early age? Can you remember any specific instances like this?
Counselor Geoff,
Steve Ecks was not at my party. And you are missing out! Do try to fix that before the semester’s end.
Counselor Michael,
Good to know that I’m still going to get smarter after 30. Not sure if I agree that IQ is a weak metric for intelligence in that you seem to be supposing a particular definition of intelligence that I might not agree with. Defining intelligence is 1/2 the battle, and I’ve always assumed IQ and “intelligence” are playing for the same team. ( Yes, Gardner and Goleman (who I got a chance to chat with for about 30 minutes) somewhat disagree.)
-Rick Lax
March 1st, 2007 at 12:52 pm
I feel like I am getting increasingly persuasive, but I think my perception is warped and that I am just persuading myself more easily because I am getting more dumber.
I scored very highly on an IQ test when I was about 10 years old. Last year, after completing my undergraduate education at Michigan, I scored a 90 on an online IQ test.
At MAFIA games, my go-to strategy is to insult the other players and condescend to them to a point that they think there is no way that I could be trying to convince them of anything, and thus everything I say is true. This strategy usually works well with people who spend their time thinking logically (law students), but not so well with people who spend their time being overly-sensitive and offended (girls).
Given cited anecdotal evidence, my advice is as follows: die at a young age, and don’t play MAFIA with anyone you want to have sex with.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:54 pm
For those of you who are so dumb you don’t know how the IQ scoring scale works, you’d probably get about a 90 as well.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Counselor Ryan,
You know we have girls in law school these days–right?
-Rick Lax
March 2nd, 2007 at 2:19 am
“I like the idea of a parent making a child explain why they want a toy, though. I wonder if our parents ever did that to us? Set us on the lawyer track from an early age? Can you remember any specific instances like this?”
I think my parents set me on the lawyer track from an early age. Grooming children to go into their parent’s career is nothing new under the sun, but when it comes to ingraining lawyering skills, parental attempts to develop logical reasoning abilities and inspire legal curiosity are often clear.
As for specific instances, at a young age, I was introduced to classic legal movies like The Paperchase, Twelve Angry Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, etc. I received The Case of the Speluncean Explorers, a fascinating hypothetical legal case in which 5 people are trapped in a cave. They elect to eat one of their party to survive. After they do, they’re rescued, but, subsequently, each is indicted for murder. Consider the legal/moral implications of that scenario.
Anyway, subtle attempts to inspire curiosity in the law are major examples that come to mind. But I’m sure the deeper a child of a lawyer digs, the more will come to light.
Can you think of any examples, Ricky?
March 2nd, 2007 at 1:17 pm
“Counselor” Elliot: You are indeed a schmuck.
I can remember watching movies with my parents as a kid as well, and some of them made me curious about the law. They also made me curious about sex, drugs, pirates, whale sharks, Klingons, God, and much more.
I only have personal experience with a few of these subjects, however. I hope my parents didn’t want me to be an alien priest that studied the impact of pirates on the mating rituals of whale sharks while on LSD. ‘Cause they screwed up if they did.
RAMBO out.
March 2nd, 2007 at 5:17 pm
RAMBO,
I generally appreciate a good satirical punch. However, I think you insensately discounted the point I was making.
I was merely suggesting subtle ways a parent might influence their child’s interests. Extensive, deliberate exposure to stories (via movies, books, etc.), with lawyers as role models, encourages incipient interests in law.
As a cumulative factor among other subtle influences, I think sharing stories about “good” lawyers can effectively instill impressionable children with a positive perspective of lawyers (opposed to stereotypes about the greedy, immoral nature of attorneys).
My point was that a parent with an agenda to produce legally engaged offspring will expose their kids to copious amounts of particularly inspiring legally oriented stories when they are young.
I may be a schmuck (as previously admitted) but I don’t think my illustrations merit the title.
March 5th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Counselor Elliott,
I actually can’t think of any examples–odd. But your last comments have given me a great business idea: you know those baby Einstein videos? They’re like the #1 most successful product in the world (Bush pointed them out in his last State of the Union). We need to make Baby Lawyer videos. We’d sell a fortune. Plus, think of how many more lawyers we could bring into the world with them!
-Rick Lax
March 5th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Counselor Rick,
That’s an excellent idea! ‘Baby Lawyer’ videos, or maybe more generally, ‘Baby Logic’ videos would definitely sell.
Baby Einstein videos don’t own the market. We just need someone with a pedigree in child psychology and legal/logical training to front the product.
Want to patent it together and be business partners?
Elliott
March 7th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
You should post the rules. You might start a law school trend!
March 8th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
“Post the rules”? “Law school trend”? PAH!
Not only is MAFIA already perhaps the most popular higher education get-together bonanza besides beer-pong, but it is definitely far too complex to figure out from any sort of blog posting. The only way to learn it is to attend a well-catered Rick Lax game and get slaughtered. Over and over.
March 10th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Counselor Lise,
You can find the rules to mafia by googling “mafia” and “princeton.” But reading the rules is no way to learn to play. It’d be like reading the rules to chess without a chessboard in front of you. The rules can’t really show you how the game is so fun. Counselor Ryan is right, you really need to come to Chicago and learn from the master.
-Rick Lax
March 29th, 2007 at 6:56 am
I thought you were law students. You are supposed to keep making up new rules. Then, after they lose, tell the non law students if they went to law school they would understand.
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